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Stuff you need to know before the POCM makes sense. Ideas, rituals and myths Christianity boosted from the Pagans. Some of the Pagan's dying-resurrected godmen The Triumph of Christianity Discover mainstream scholarship about Christianity's Pagan origins What did the Christians borrow? So what?
the ideas, myths and rituals christianity borrowed from the pagans Jesus saves -- Pagan Gods saved first gods whose dad was a god and whose mom was a mortal woman Christianity has baptism -- Paganism had it first Christians share a sacred meal with their God -- Pagans did it first Christians believe in eternal life -- but Paganism believed in it first
Jesus did miracles -- Pagan Gods did them first Jesus fulfilled prophecy -- Pagan Gods fulfilled prophecy first God and the immortal soul -- Paganism had 'em first Christianity thinks it has monotheism -- Paganism had it first Jesus' God lives in Heaven on High -- Pagan Gods lived there first pagan dead went to the underworld Jesus made clever quips -- Pagan cynic philosophers made them first
Hey Presto! It's yet more common sense

This is another one of those "duh" efforts by Pikachu, though not as bad as others he's done. Let's start the ball rolling with a point by Glenn Miller: It must be remembered that SOME general similar traits of leadership MUST apply to any religious leader. They must generally be good leaders, do noteworthy feats of goodness and/or supernatural power, establish teachings and traditions, create community rituals, and overcome some forms of evil. These are common elements of the religious life--NOT objects that require some theory of dependence. [For example, the fact that that Aztec divine heroes were said to have done wonders similar to those from Asia Minor doesn't necessitate us coming up with a theory of how one of these religions 'borrowed' from the other...smile.]...The common aspect of homo religiosus is an adequate and more plausible explanation than dependence, in such cases. Now compare this to Pikachu's clumsy assertion that the first Christians did more than borrow the idea of Pagan miracles, they accepted the fact that Pagan miracles were real. This is simply asinine. Pikachu actually expects that a real, divine Jesus would have to slap his forehead and yell, "Darn! I can't go out and heal people -- someone will think I BORROWED that from Asclepius!" Or: "I don't care of you people suffer from leprosy and other diseases. I will withhold healing because it looks too much like Dionysus."

Come on, Pikachu. Let's talk seriously about miracles.

Lousy with naturalism
Pikachu never makes his own religious biases clear (probably because he's been so busy trying to hoist others on that petard that he knows the minute he does reveal himself, he loses that argument) but he seems to infer that any and all reports of miracles were just plain fraudulent. Let me make my position clear -- when it comes to "pagan" miracles, I am a "miracle agnostic". I do not assume that miracles claimed of i.e., Asclepius did not actually happen. The Christian worldview allows for such things by various means (such as, that demonic influences withdrew their hand).

Pikachu wants to stack the deck as quickly as possible, so he begins with what he calls a "Christian miracle..." -- which probably isn't.

An early Christian leg pulling exercise
Pikachu pulls what he thinks is a "miracle described in by an early Christian." IN an early Christian, yes; that's all he says. But the first one he picks is a real lulu.

What he selects is an account of Simon Magnus -- a self-proclaimed "Christ" according to later church literature, by the way -- where there's a story of he and Peter having an aerial battle (like Superman vs Captain Marvel) to decide who was superior. Here's the quote as used by Pikachu:

" Now when he [Simon Magnus] was in Rome, he mightily disturbed the Church, and subverted many, and brought them over to himself, and astonished the Gentiles with his skill in magic, insomuch that once,...he...promised he would fly in the air; and...indeed he was carried up into the air by demons, and did fly on high in the air, saying that he was returning into heaven, and that he would supply them with good things from thence... I [Peter] stretched out my hands to heaven ... and besought God through the Lord Jesus to throw down this pestilent fellow, and... When I had said these words, Simon was deprived of his powers, and fell down headlong.
[Constitutions of the Holy Apostles 6.9 (350 AD)]

Don't believe me, I'm a nut.

Pikachu puts a date of "third century" on the story, but he's about 100 years too early -- try fourth century. But here's the real bonehead error: He thinks that this story was meant to be taken seriously. No, really. In his rush to demonstrate that those stupid ancients "saw miracles as everyday events," Pikachu picks a story that is so obviously late, and so obviously designed to be an amusing parody, that it goes right over his head that no one meant for this to be read as history.

And there's more -- Pikachu is making out the ancients to be remarkably stupid to the point that miracles were "everyday," but come on now -- the accounts we have are but a microcosm of ancient events; millions of people lived all over the Roman Empire, and the Empire lasted for centuries; count the number of reported miracles pro rata, and you'll find (as in the Bible as well) that miracles were actually infrequent and happened to only the tiniest portion of the population. Pikachu makes the classic error of looking through a narrow window and thinking he is seeing from one end of the horizon to the other.

 

In all of this, Pikachu asserts that "miracle power" was regarded as some sort of Star Wars force-and-the-dark-side thing, but that as usual is beside the point. One may as well speak of electricity the same way, since we have to "plug in" to a "force" to use it. This is the nature of power -- it isn't something "stolen" or "borrowed" from somewhere else.

Friend, it ain't no more "Pagan" than plugging in your microwave.

 

And a woman, who had an issue of blood twelve years, and had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse, having heard the things concerning Jesus, came in the crowd behind, and touched his garment. For she said, If I touch but his garments, I shall be made whole. And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her plague. And straightway Jesus, perceiving in himself that the power from him had gone forth, turned him about in the crowd, and said, "Who touched my garments?"
[Gospel of Mark, 5:25 - 30]

Don't believe me, I need therapy

Miracles were NOT everywhere.   Pikachu's analogical comparison to the ocean being "wet" is a patent and irresponsible absurdity. He claims they were too stinking many to count and were everywhere, and then lists a handful that occurred over a range of hundreds of years. I mean, come on!

Even worse is his utter abuse of Josephus in this >> "list of miracles" taken from one page of The Jewish War. Hello? Go BEYOND that one page, friend, and the miracles just aren't there any more. Pages and pages and pages of military conquests, political intrigue, religious dallying -- and not one miracle in sight. Josephus relates here a very unusual time, around the very short period just before Jerusalem was destroyed. And here's something important Pikachu leaves out: Josephus himself knows that miracles are not "everyday" occurrences, but very unusual events which the reader will find hard to believe. We'll add that very important quote at the bottom of Pikachu's list.



Josephus is telling how the war should have been foreseen, because >>

 

 

 

"the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their [the Jews] future desolation."[Josephus, Jewish War, ,6.5.288] He goes on:

"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year." [6.5.289]

And in the Temple, "at the ninth hour of the night of the night a great light shone round the altar....This light seemed to be a good sign to the naive, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend the events that followed." [6.5.291- 293]

And, "also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple." [6.5.292]

"Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner temple. ..was seen to be opened of its own accord. This also the vulgar thought a happy prodigy...but the men of learning understood it."[6.5.293 - 295]

And, "...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds. [6.5.298 - 299]

And "Jesus, son of Ananus...came to that feast whereon.. everyone makes tabernacles to God in the temple...and began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house." [6.5.300- 301]

And now one Pikachu purposely glosses over. "Besides these...a certain great and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem a fable, were it not related by those who saw it; and were not the events that followed it if so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals..." Whereupon Josephus relates the above miracle of a vision of soliders running around in the clouds.[6.5.297- 298]

Don't believe me, I leave out stuff.

Did you catch that?Pikachu dishonestly ignores Josephus' caution; he manipulatively describes this as being on one page of one book as though you could throw open to any one page of Josephus and find just as many miracles recorded; leading to the conclusion that they were everywhere at all times, and these people must have been ridiculously gullible. He says it himself: Pick up any ancient text; Pagan or Christian, it's got miracles in it. Guaranteed. I in turn guarantee that these miracles will be rare, and will be considered to be unusual events. For a more reasoned and scholarly view, see here -- note this sample: In antiquity miracles were not accepted without question. Graeco-Roman writers were often reluctant to ascribe miraculous events to the gods, and offered alternative explanations. Some writers were openly skeptical about miracles (e.g. Epicurus; Lucretius; Lucian). So it is a mistake to write off the miracles of Jesus as the result of the naivety and gullibility of people in the ancient world. Note also that the time of Jesus was specifically one of the least "gullible" in ancient history.  

 

 

By the way, Duh is right!

Pikachu cuts his own feet out from under him when he admits that it's hard to imagine a God who doesn't do miracles. Miracles are one of the things that make a God a God. Duh. It's also a fact of logic that makes Pikachu's whole "borrowing" thesis an inert mass of irrelevance.

No one thinks or cares that Christianity was new and unique in this respect. Since miracles are what "make a God a God" -- true or false -- Pagan Gods who did them before Jesus are of no relevance.

So there, indeed.

Since even Pikachu admits that miracles practically HAD to be a staple of any religious leader or divine being worth his or her salt, there's no need to comment on most of his list of miracles by Asclepius and the others. Once again, it's not as though a genuine, divine Jesus will have to say to Mary and Martha, "I'm sorry, I can't raise your brother Lazarus, because Asclepius already did that one." I mean, let's be serious here. There are just a few comments worth making otherwise.

"Asclepius was the son of Apollo [a god] and Coronis [a mortal woman -- is the pattern sinking in here?]...he healed many sick whose lives had been despaired of, and... he brought back to life many who had died." [Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History, 4.7.1.1- 2]

Don't believe me, believe scholars who know beter.

Pikachu gets a lot of his cites from this Diodorus guy, but don't get too happy. Diodorus isn't taken at face value, as noted here: The history, which is a compilation of other sources, is often repetitive and contradictory. Historians generally regard it as uncritical and unreliable. It's more than just, "he reports miracles," folks -- it's how well he does history; in that regard, the NT writers (Luke especially) tend to be a cut above.

Pythagoras: imitating Jesus

"Verified predictions [by Pythagoras] of earthquakes are handed down, also, that he immediately chases away pestilence, suppressed violent winds and hail, [and] calmed storms o both rivers and seas. [Porphyry, Life of Pythagoras 29] Yeah, right. Pay close attention: That's Porphyry, writing in the late 200s AD. Looks like sour grapes to me.

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

Poseidon crossed the water? Okay...

"Then gamboled the sea beasts beneath him [Poseidon] on every side from out of the deep, for well they knew their lord, and in gladness the sea parted before him." [Homer, Iliad, 29] That makes sense, since he was lord of the sea; but as far as Jesus is concerned, a better forbear is Moses -- and the book of Job, which says that only God can walk on water (Job 9:8). Beware though. Pikachu cites "Eustathius" on Alexander the Great dividing the sea; but Eustathius wrote in the late 1100s AD! And the "Lucian" Pikachu quotes about men walking on water comes from hundreds of years after Jesus also.

Don't believe me, believe the ancients themselves.

The last one worth a comment is about Dionysus alledgedly changing water into wine. But read carefully: 

"At fixed times in their city a fountain of wine, of unusually sweet fragrance, flows of its own accord from the earth." [Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History 3.66.3] Not so fast: This isn't "water into wine" -- there's no water to begin with!

"The water flowing from a spring in the temple of Father Liber [Dionysus] on the island of Andros always has the flavor of wine on January 5th: the day is called God's Gift Day. [Pliny the Elder, Natural History 2.106] Same due caution here. There is no "change" -- what we have is water with a wine-like flavor; and this is understood to mean, usually, that wine replaced water -- not that it was turned from one to the other.

Don't believe me, I need a course in critical thinking.

 

The next time you're with Lurch
ask yourself:"Is Pikachu serious? He even admits a god is expected to do miracles; and once you have a personal god with an interest in and care for humans, it's just common sense."

Next time you're in church... When they get to the part about Jesus doing miracles, remember that gods doing miracles is just common sense -- whether that god is real or not.

You'll know Pikachu is finding significance in a practicing universal -- and that there's no reason to suspect "borrowing". In fact, if you want to suspect it at all, get it from the miracle-working Jewish prophets of the OT, who healed people, raised the dead, and parted the waters.

Uhhhhhhhhh!

Since miracles were NOT "so common" after all, Pikachu's bigoted comment about those stupid ancients not having "science" is irrelevant anyway; but even if they were "common" the existence of science neither proves naturalism nor invalidates miracles. Pikachu merely makes the illoigcal leap from, "we can explain that with science" to "therefore it must have been something not miraculous." Could have been, yes. Must have been -- no.

Another Stooge Person Fantasizing Your Most Ludicrous MomentsA neophyte like Pikachu may find this a way in which ancient civilization was incomprehensibly different from ours, but it's really quite comprehensible, and it's also a matter of category fallacy. Sure, the ancients did believe in demon possession; but they also believed in physical illness. It's not as though a demon was blamed each and every time little Augustus had a cough. If you check the Gospels you'll see that demon possession is actually very rare -- Jesus must have encountered tens of thousands of people; yet there are less than two dozen exorcisms recorded.

While it is true that appeals to the miraculous were used by the ancients to explain that which was inaccessible, in essence our "modern" view (if we are theists) is little different. The ancients believed that the sun was physically pushed through the sky by a god? Well, we believe that an intelligent Creator set up and designed the physical laws of the universe; that He placed the sun and Earth in a specific orbit that would enable it to function within those laws in an hospitable manner of humanity. Have things really changed? No, not really. We just simplify matters.

At the same time, Pikachu falls for the usual misapplication what he says that "performing a miracle" means "breaking the rules of nature" -- the distinction "nature" and "supernature" is an entirely modern one; for the ancients -- and in fact -- a deity raising the dead was not more a "violation" than us picking up a box "violates" the law of gravity. "Miracles" are just deity doing what we could theoretically do, but faster and better than we could ever do it. So it is that even today, despite Pikachu, a God raising the dead doesn't break the rules, it fit the rules perfectly.

Better, huh?

 

Christianity: Miracles just as unusual
Yes, Jesus' apostles -- his earliest followers -- had the power to perform miracles, and Pikachu has his head in a bucket again if he thinks we're not aware that being able to do this was understood as a sign you were filled with the Holy Spirit. It's plain as day in the NT: All of the charismatic gifts are regarded as from the activity of the Spirit, and Jesus himself calls the Spirit the "finger of God". It wasn't a "Star Wars" force, despite Pikachu: The Force was impersonal and could be manipulated for good OR evil. Not so with the Spirit, which was personal and holy.

Yes, thumb through an early Christian book; just like Pagan books, miracles will be unusual and regarded as unusual. Pikachu is staring through a narrow window... yadda yadda yadda. You know the drill. So there's no need to comment on every one of the miracles Pikachu lists -- even a full list would be only a microcosm of history; even with "thousands" (which is a great exaggeration) you still have miracles clustered around very short periods (assuming they were even meant to be taken seriously in the first place), limited to small audiences.

 
The first Christians did not NEED to borrow the idea of Pagan miracles; it was just common sense that gods would do miracles -- and the Jews believed this as well, and offer a far better precedent. And of course they accepted the fact that Pagan miracles were real. "Wow"? Come on, Pikachu -- this is old news. Don't blame us for your own ignorance.  
Even More and Better Books for this section
In Defense of Miracles : A Comprehensive Case for God's Actions in History
by R. Douglas Geivett, ed.

Get real on miracles It's not that we don't think Pikachu's recommends of Cotter and MacMullen aren't any good; far from it. But there needs to be a corrective to Pikachu's naive dichotomy between "science" and "miracle," and this one will do as good as any. Also make sure you read the item linked above about the lack of gullibility in the time of Jesus regarding miracles. Also note that MacMullen covers the era between 100-400 AD -- not the critical formative years during which social factors affecting Christianity would have killed it in the cradle, regardless of how many miracles (real or imagined) Jesus and his apostles may have done.