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From the Mailbag

This email was the gem of the month:

Great articule to show your dislike of Harris. Really had very little else in it. I am a Christian and your rebuttal only shows your hate and discuss for Harris not much else. Someone out there please do a better job of showing he is wrong about the bible.

Hey, with spelling like that, I know I have someone to reckon with here. I also got this as a subject line:

you are sooooo wrong

That was it. I wasn't told what I was sooooo wrong about.

The February 2011 John Loftus Collection

Poor John is n a snit these days, and he wins for that:

I've had enough. I am sick and tired of Christian intellectuals, from Paul Copan (my friend), to Victor Reppert and a lot lower down the totem pole to David Wood, in their attempts to say that the slavery in the American South was different than what the Bible allows, and so it should never have been used to justify it. If you want to see me hot tempered, then just raise this asinine argument. I try to get along here at DC by being respectful of Christian beliefs, but on this issue I cannot bend for one nanosecond. Don't even suggest it, as Dr. Victor Reppert just did.

And then, at the same time, isn't this the John who says:

I try to get along here at DC by being respectful of Christian beliefs.....

And also says:

Randal's new book You’re Not As Crazy As I Think: Dialogue in a World of Loud Voices and Hardened Opinions is refreshing in several ways as a reminder that we need more dialogue between opposing sides, rather than more vitriol.

Sure wish he'd make up his mind.

John also wins for using Dan Barker and John Remsburg as reliable sources, and for pushing the old "Dark Ages" canard.

A reputed Christian, Mr. Veale, wins for this choice bit of kissing up:

I just don't understand this obsession with John [Loftus]'s character. And it's only his online personality that we can comment on. Unless you've met John f-2-f, you don't have any insight into the man's personality.

Atheist Miscellany

calpurniso explains all the problems of famous intellectual Christians:

Newton had a neurological problem, learn about his life,He had OCD looking for the Philosopher Stone. ALCHEMY. He had NO IDEA as people of his day, they created the bizarre beliefs of Zombie Jesus with the BRAIN not [bleep]. Augustine would be locked up in an Asylum. Read his City of God. You fail to understand neurology PROVES we create Bizarre Beliefs of God with our brains. Accepting them as REALITY is mental illness.This can be PROVEN in a neurology lab. I'm simply presenting the truth

Apostate doubtertom has the victim game down:

Some people may say I'm an atheist. I don't know if I am or not, I'd like to believe but none of the pieces fit together for me. Lots of people read the same material and come away with different conclusions, and this is true for any subject. The fact is that most amateur apologists and a lot of professional ones stop short on questions they can't answer and say "God did it." They just plain stop thinking, whereas the former believer takes it a step further and falls off the cliff. A few weeks ago my pastor (yes I go to church!) was trying to explain the contradiction between believers having all authority - heal the sick, raise the dead - and yet this isn't done. He admitted that he didn't know why those things don't happen, but he believes the Bible anyway. That's his cliff; he walked to the edge, peered around, and said "there's no cliff here!" and walked away.

I'm sorry that you don't take a former believer's word that they fought atheism tooth-and-nail before finally giving in to the evidence. As the TV evangelist said, "the man with an argument doesn't have anything on the man with an experience" and you are all argument and no experience here. The former believer has an experience. He's really fought this thing out. It's painful - ministries and marriages are destroyed. No one "chooses" that. But some of us reach the cliff and realize that it's really there. There's no support when you go out this far. Some questions don't have answers, and that's really not good enough with eternity on the line.

When you are at my point, why choice is there? To continue to believe in the unbelievable? To say there is no God? To say there's a God, but it's unlike anything in any religion, pitiless and indifferent? How is that fundamentally different from atheism?

YouTube whacko AugustusLarch:

What evidence. The only evidence I can find is a scam. I will check out your 'sources'. They are peobably biblical scholars. That's no support against someone who thinks the Scriprtures are coorupted. There is a reason that powerful groups want to program people like you. Even when you admit a spin or a twist like the Catholics twisted to Pagan side, you dimiss it and then call my argument 'new age' what is new age about Plato.

You people need some fresh air and a clear head.

lao tzu, asking about whether translations are erroneous:

And most of Genesis 1 and 2 because they're ignorant of evolution? And the flood because they're ignorant of geology? And the Tower of Babel because they're ignorant of historical linguistics? And the star of Bethlehem because they're ignorant of astronomy? And the wedding wine because they're ignorant of fermentation? And the resurrection because they're ignorant of death?

This is awesome. Not just a full head 'splosion, but the litter of brains making pretty patterns on the walls and ceiling. Keep it up!

disxrt, on preterism:

When the facts don't support you, invent something out of whole cloth, when your conlusion is predermined any specious tactic can be justified! That's Christian apologetics.

024PerfidiousAlbion represents the best in atheist reason:

Anyone who believes ANYTHING that is said in the bible needs to be skinned alive on nationwide TV. Also if I had lost a relative or a loved one and one those church members came a calling...I would take the claw end of a hammer to their faces

Pitchforkpat is trying for all-purpose Platinum again:

ancient stories don’t have to follow logic. Otherwise the talking snake and talking donkey could be discarded for not making sense.

Tassmanm having subjective-objective fail:

You are being ingenuous. The church has always claimed to be the final arbiter of biblical interpretation. . . .Witches were hunted down and killed based on scriptural authority. . . . Slavery was specifically justified by scriptural texts and the largest body of Protestant Christianity in the world, the Southern Baptist Convention, was formed in part to defend the practice of slavery.

As for “disobeying it completely”, that is your interpretation. . . . Women were regarded as men’s chattels, based on biblical texts and despite apologists' attempts to "white-wash" the bible, it does not change the fact that the bible is anti women. . . . The fact remains that there is no consistent or absolute moral code to be gleaned from the bible. It is interpreted according to the social values of the day and changes from age to age. . . . Do you disagree that god’s word has been open to interpretation in an inconsistent way by his church in different eras and by different denominations? And that biblical authority means little more than what the religious pundits of the day say it means?

Luis Dias opnes up a can of philosophy whoop-arse:

The obvious truth that you don’t have a free will does not constitute sufficient justification for the lack of responsibility. I’m always amused at those who ridicule other’s points of view for being “ridiculous”, while defending otherwise undefensible positions, just like stating that we are both animals, living in a material world, and that we have “free will”.

Free Will, even accepting the “possibility” of a higher “spiritual” dimension (whatever), is a self-contradictory concept, since you cannot be free from yourself. If you cannot be free from yourself, it means you are doomed to behave as is your own nature. And it couldn’t be otherwise: how can I be free to do something that I actually end up doing? I will always do whatever I will always do, and “Free Will” is nothing but a social concept to place responsibility upon the “decider”, so that he will measure well the consequences of his own actions before making stupid things.

IOW, “Free Will” does not “exist” per se, but it exists as an ideology that works. Now, if you still want a reasonable society, even after realising that Free Will is as stupid a concept as it gets, you will not desresponsabilize people for their actions. For even if they were “doomed” to do what they ended up doing because the universe just goes its way, the behavior of a conscious agent is totally different if one believes that he is responsible, and the society that is built is a completely different one, a self-regulating, cohesive and working one.

IOW, I don’t believe in FW, but I do believe in the belief of it.

Jaecp has the ultimate solution for knowledge-seekers, even those with doctorates:

your presuming what scholars do and don't know in an unjustified fashion, can a biblical scholar not look up bear behavior on wikipedia or something if he so chose?

He also has major historiography failage, per this on why we should doubt evidence of demon possession in the ancient world:

Maybe because there are an awful lot of false beliefs throughout the ages, and the only evidence we have for them is that someone believed it and wrote it down.

The Christian and Theist Collection

OtherCheek, on why God values illiteracy:

Cuz then we naturally think we are more literate than God is. It's called PRIDE.

And he also says:

The LDS source refers to Sorcery; Spirits, Evil or Unclean.

A non-LDS source says:

According to The Bible record, sorcerers, or necromancers, who claimed the ability to contact the dead were said to have a "familiar spirit." The word "familiar" in this usage is derived from the Latin word familiaris, meaning a "household servant," and was intended to imply that they had spirits as their servants, ready to obey their commands, which for some of them may have been partly true - but the spirits were demons. The rest, like the many carnival "mediums" today, either had hidden human (or in modern times, electronic) assistants, or were skilled ventriloquists who could fake the sound of a voice coming from the ground, or from "thin air."

I don't think eisegesis is completely unwarranted, however in the phrase "familiar spirit". Because I've heard many converts also say that when they first heard the doctrines of the Restored Gospel taught to them, they felt as though they were being taught principles and truths that they somehow had always known to be true before, and had a de-ja-vu ring to them.

Christian student, in an ethics class:

I don't understand why we're studying natural rights and how rights can be inalienable when Jesus gave up his rights, and we're supposed to be like Jesus.

Epoetker, on feminism:

Without the hordes of cheap and willing female workers driving down male wages, the incessant demands of females for trinkety things NOW, and the hypergamous status-posturing that drives the average man's devotion to ambition, industrial death culture wouldn't be here. Feminism is about what's good for single women, patriarchy is about what's good for families, and giving women access to the vote and the shift have merely depressed wages for everyone.

Facebook Christian says of herself:

has completed a paper in 45 minutes! Yep, that's the power of Jesus right there!

ManFromHeaven is the new loony:

The so called miracles of old and new testament scriptures have reasonable explanation. They are not magical events or supernatural events. Yeshua said; "How evil the people are of this day that they expect a miracle or sign in the sky as evidence of God's approval."

A sign in the sky would be a comet depicting the sword (word of God), proclaiming the coming of the Messiah. Yeshua proclaimed "I come with the sword (words of God), to divide fathers and sons....." And Yeshua walked his spiritual journey on water (Knowledge)

His healing's were purely spiritual in nature, not metaphysical or literal but allegorical and only understood with insight of the symbolism.

Certainly the deliberate deception of the churches makes true revelations to John; The great harlot or whore spreading her legs across all the nations.

And some guy's are so deceived that they think not of their Mother earth! Satin is the collective deception of the churches.

Jesus was summoned to account for himself to the High Priest. To make account of ones self is to speak and explain, certainly not have your disciple bring a literal sword and use it violently! Is this the Jesus you believe in? A man who condone's violence!

The sword is the spoken word. The physical event was the meeting and discussion. The spiritual significance was the understanding of Jesus teachings. The healing was lending ones ear to listen. This was the work's of Jesus. Spiritual understanding and healing.

Chopping off a mans ear and magically healing it back on has no spiritual significance! Just plain black magic! Satanic deception!

Pray tell me; What is your spiritual significance of having a mans ear chopped off.

Bishop Tamaki, Platinum nominee of last year, is still at it:

In the sermons, Bishop Tamaki said he had been preparing his followers for a year to receive the revelation God gave him about the resurrection, so they could "understand what the Bible is really saying".

He told the congregation they would doubt his teaching, unless they also had the revelation, because of "too many forces and too much teaching and too much backlog of religion".

"You must get out of your mind that, that Jesus Christ is now, ah, is still Jesus of Nazareth ... But Jesus did not come out of the tomb. The flesh Jesus died in the tomb."

Bishop Tamaki went on to say that theologians and other Christian teachers would have difficulty accepting his teaching.

"The first thing they would do is that they would immediately move into a spirit of condescension. They would say, 'You cannot say that'."


Bishop Tamaki said the allegations made by Mr Vrankovich - "Who is he?" - were taken out of context and an attempt to attract attention. "I fully affirm the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, which has always been and continues to be a foundation doctrine of Destiny Church."

Bishop Tamaki said his teaching was pointing out the differences in the body of Jesus before and after the resurrection.

"I have never denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ but have given a more thorough and clearer understanding of the resurrected form of Jesus Christ, post-resurrection, and how it relates to the believers and the church today."

Mr Vrankovich said Bishop Tamaki was "backpedalling" to a more orthodox Christian teaching. He denied quoting Bishop Tamaki out of context and invited people to visit the Cultwatch website to decide for themselves.

treeoflife opens his scumbag:

"The head of the Jewish underground in England at that time was a Jew named De Souze. The Great Jew, Fernandez Carvajal, had used his influence to have De Souze appointed Portuguese Ambassador. It was in his house, protected by diplomatic immunity, that the leaders of the Jewish revolutionary underground remained hidden and worked out their plots and intrigue.[16] Once the revolution had been decided upon, the Jewish plotters introduced Calvinism into England to split Church and State, and divide the people. Contrary to general belief, Calvinism is of Jewish origin. It was deliberately conceived to split the adherents of the Christian religions, and divide the people. Calvin’s real name was Cohen ! When he went from Geneva to France to start preaching his doctrine he became known as Cauin. Then in England it became Calvin. History proves that there is hardly a revolutionary plot that wasn’t hatched in Switzerland; there is hardly a Jewish revolutionary leader who hasn’t changed his name. At the B’nai B’rith celebrations held in Paris, France, in 1936 Cohen, Cauvin, or Calvin, whatever his name may have been, was enthusiastically acclaimed to have been of Jewish descent.*** ***This fact was commented upon in the Catholic Gazette in February of that year."

First, this is not nazi propaganda, the author of this book was a canadian naval officer during ww1 and ww2. he was a christian and he fought against the nazis. secondly, there are many truths in this article.

jehan cauvin is not a french name, jehan sounds like a jewish name. I don't know for sure if calvin was jewish, but there is, in my opinion, a jewish and masonic conspiracy in this world.

the bible call them the synagogue of satan.

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

all these jewish bankers, rothschild, warburg, jacob schiff and more... they're billionnaires working with masons, creating masonic lodges in the world, financing wars and revolutions. they own banks and they own governments. B'nai Brith really exists.

I personnally believe that the false prophet is a jewish king and that the beast 666 is the catholic church. this is why jews infiltrated the church. I even believe the pope is now a mason working with zionist jews.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

the bible tells us that the 10 kings and the beast will hate the whore, and the whore is rome. this is the kind of things they seem to do.

"Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass [yourselves] about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks [that] ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow."

Eeset is back as nutty as ever:

I have been away from this site for a while. Why? Well first let me say it is a site full of very wonderful people. Though I may disagree with the views of others I love that people here seek God. Even those who claim there is no God.

I became bored with Bible worshipers. They are nice folks so please don't take my stance incorrectly. It is just that they seem to think God changed. Now his communication is confined to an enshrined book when in that very book he spoke directly to humans. God tells me it is not so.

So, why this post? I bring you glad tidings. God still speaks to humans and directly. God told me to let you know that. God also told me that neither I nor anyone else can comprehend God. I'm a ditz so that was easy for me to accept. God then said turn aside from haters. Let them wallow in their condemnation of others whether that be hatred of the Jew, the Muslim, the Mormon, the homosexual or any other part of creation. God said the principle is unchanged and each person will reap what they have sown.

Worship what you will. As for me and my family we shall worship the Lord. And that includes loving each of you just as instructed by Jesus who is called by Peter Jesus Christ of Nazareth, God's holy servant.

YouTube user Bluefirefox, responding to my vid on hell and the difference between fire as light and darkness as black:

I must say you present a valid explanation if you don't take the Bible in a literal sense, however, for those that do, hell being both fire and darkness is a very simple explanation. Hydrogen burns at ultraviolet and is one of the hottest known flames.

ritzound, a reputed Chistian, explains why it is OK to get high on drugs:

"impaired" seems to put it into a negative light when the difference in judgment may actually be part of God's plan for the plant and beneficial for us. "Long term harmful affects" are debatable.,0,4905341.story,0,2787671.story - Simon Pegg, famous at-large Platinum nominee -- At-Large Platinum nominee (article author is Screwball)